'It Was Not Aimed at Conservatives'


J$P Instant Transcript! Pat Caddell and Rich Masters discuss the Mary Cheney reference. Updated! The Outfoxed gals fake quotes, and is that another blatant lie?

From Hannity and Colmes, October 15 2004:

SEAN HANNITY [FOX NEWS]: Joining us now, former Democratic pollster Pat Caddell, and Democratic strategist Rich Masters. Pat, I’ll ask you, you’re the Democrat here. I was stunned that they did this in front of this audience, and beyond which, now that they know the Cheneys are mad, not only do they not apologize, they use the words Mary Cheney’s fair game. Are you as appalled as I am?

PAT CADDELL [FORMER DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER]: Well, I’m pretty amazed by the reaction. It’s pretty severe. But let me tell you the real truth here. This was obviously preordained. It was not, however, aimed at conservatives. It was aimed at the base in the Democratic party. This is the misnomer. Last weekend, understand this, you have to go back last weekend in Miami, Sen Kerry campaigned with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton in black churches, and Jesse Jackson was talking to the parishioners about not getting upset by the same-sex marriage issue, and letting it distract them. And John Kerry agreed. The reason that they were in Miami, that Kerry was in Miami with two figures probably not that popular on the Gold Coast--

HANNITY: All right, but let me stay on focus here. I’m going to get to some of these issues in just a second here. But you concur with me, this was a preordained, politically calculated decision to use their daughter.

CADDELL: Yep, just back--look, it was a strategic move because what they wanted to do was to deal with, basically you’ve got a huge majority. This is the biggest issue that’s never been discussed in this campaign, is the same-sex marriage issue. It’s a 70-75% issue. And among its most ardent opponents of gay marriage are African-Americans, Hispanics, and voters over 65, the heart of the Democratic Party. That’s who Kerry was speaking to.

HANNITY: Pat, you’re getting too analytical. Because you’re a great strategist, you’re a strategic thinker--

CADDELL: I’m sorry. All right, Sean, what he was speaking to is Democrats. He was trying to use it to obscure the issue because those voters have been cross-pressured by this issue, and they’re concerned about it, they’re concerned about black turnout.

HANNITY: All right, take off your analytical hat, though, Pat, for just a second here. Let me give this question to Rich and then we’ll get him in on this. This to me isn’t the point, although I do agree Pat, and Pat is a great strategic thinker. The issue here is, this is so cheap and tawdry and mean-spirited to use the daughter of the VP in front of 50 million people, and use her this way for political purposes, and Pat even agrees with that. And what’s fascinating about this is when questioned about it, they say that this girl, of the VP, is “fair game”. Is this how bad they want to win?

RICH MASTERS [DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST]: Hey Sean, real quick, who is the first person to bring up Mary Cheney in the Presidential race? Who?

HANNITY: Hey Rich, who--

MASTERS: No, Sean, who is the first person?

HANNITY: Listen, it’s inappropriate--

CADDELL: Rich--

MASTERS: Just answer the question.

HANNITY: Hey Rich, when you get your show you can ask me all the questions you want. But you don’t have a show. I’m going to answer your question--

CADDELL: But that’s not what happened.

MASTERS: No, he brought her up.

CADDELL: No, he was asked about it.

HANNITY: What happened here is--no, if Dick Cheney and Lynn Cheney want to talk about their daughter that’s fine. Keep the children out of these campaigns. Stop attacking them for political gain. What they did is disgraceful and they ought to apologize.

CADDELL: Look, the problem is--

MASTERS: The truth of it is, the VP brought his daughter into the campaign. Now listen--

CADDELL: No, Rich, that’s not true.

MASTERS: --the bottom line is, right now, everyone is trying to make a big deal about this because of the fact that they want to ignore the fact that the President was a disaster in three debates.

CADDELL: Oh come on, listen, stop the spin.

HANNITY: Stop the spin is right.

ALAN COLMES [FOX NEWS]: Hold on guys, let me just show you who was the first person to bring this up in this campaign. Let me show you. Here’s the tape; take a look.

MASTERS: Thanks, Alan.

VIDEOTAPE [VP Dick Cheney]: I have a gay daughter, so it’s an issue that our family’s very familiar with. We have 2 daughters and we have enormous pride in both of them.

CADDELL: Alan--

COLMES: Pat Caddell, to have them feign indignation and anger about this, when Dick Cheney has brought it up, she publicly worked as a liaison between the gay community and Coors Beer--

CADDELL: Alan--

COLMES: --to have them feign all this indignation is just political posturing, Pat.

CADDELL: Alan, come on. Look, the problem is he was asked the question. For some weeks before that Democrats had been saying they wanted to get him on the record about this because of what he had said in 2000 about he didn’t consider it an issue given George Bush’s position on a constitutional amendment. He answered a question; he wasn’t campaigning on it, number one. Let’s be honest about this.

COLMES: The same thing happened at the debates. John Kerry answered a question by Bob Schieffer--

MASTERS: Exactly.

COLMES: --they didn’t even know the gay issue would come up. It happened to come up and that’s how he responded. To say that he preordained this, we didn’t know it was going to come up.

CADDELL: Bob Schieffer--Alan, look. He said it was going to come up. He already indicated he was going to ask about it. That was prepared. What I’m trying to say, going back to the Miami thing, all these answers are strategically prepared. You know, in 1976 we had a problem with people who thought Jimmy Carter was too much of a born-again Christian for liberals, so we did a Playboy interview and it backfired. This backfired. It backfired for this reason: because basically when they said she’s fair game, which almost no one covered--what had happened was the audience, I saw the tape, ABC had a tape where they had people in a control group--

HANNITY: The meters.

CADDELL: --meters, and they were doing it. And the audience, you could see that those people jumped up at the tv screen. What I’m saying is the reaction, they thought it was too much. What I’m saying though is, it was a strategic move that backfired.

COLMES: All right, Rich Masters let me go to you for a second. We’re going to talk strategically, Rich Masters. The way Lynn Cheney reacted, the way Dick Cheney react, as if they heard for the first time that their daughter was a lesbian, something that they had brought up, that they had talked about, is also strategic on the Republicans’ part, isn’t it?

MASTERS: It’s absolutely strategic. It’s exactly what I would advise, if I were on the inside right now of the Bush-Cheney campaign, listen, they’ve lost the first debate, they lost the second debate, they lost the third debate. They can’t talk about the jobs they’ve created because, let’s guess what, mm, oh, they have not created a single job.

CADDELL: Rich, hey, seriously--

MASTERS: They can’t talk about what’s happening internationally, because, what’s happening? They’ve lost a thousand troops in Iraq.

CADDELL: Look--

MASTERS: They can’t talk about our standing internationally. Why can’t they talk about that? Because we’re a disaster internationally. So of course they have to talk about gay marriage.

COLMES: Pat Caddell, this is the one thing they’re talking about coming out of the debate, and they’ve lost all the debates, and this is the one thing they’re latching on to, hanging on to, Pat.

MASTERS: That’s it.

COLMES: What else have they got?

CADDELL: Alan, come on. The people who responded, that’s why I said what’s so interesting, were ordinary voters. And if you read the comments like in the New York Times in Iowa, where their focus group people, people responded viscerally to it. Now they may be using from their end, I’m not saying or suggesting that I’m not going to make the most of it. The point was, it was a stupid move to do that way. It backfired because it looked like he was dragging them in. And the fact that they mentioned her daughter--

COLMES: I’m not sure it’s backfired. On what basis do you say that?

CADDELL: Look, he could have mentioned, why didn’t he mention Chrissy Gephardt, who’s someone he knows, whose a friend of his daughters?

HANNITY: Exactly. Exactly.

CADDELL: He didn’t mention that because he wanted to speak to Democrats by saying there’s a gay daughter on the other side. That basically was because of blacks.

HANNITY: Hang on Rich, we’ll let you regurgitate all your talking points that you’ve been on all night when we get back.

MASTERS: It’s not talking points now.

HANNITY: That’s all you’ve mentioned the whole night.

MASTERS: No, no, no.

HANNITY: We’ll get to that when we come back...

[commercial break]

COLMES: ...Pat, to the question as to why Chrissy Gephardt wasn’t mentioned and indeed Mary Cheney was, Dick Cheney made this an issue. He talked about it on the stump in answer to a question.

CADDELL: Please Alan, he was asked a question--

COLMES: I just played you the tape, come on.

CADDELL: Alan, let’s stop jabbering with each other on this stuff. He was asked a question because the Democrats, we wanted to put him on record against Bush on the constitutional amendment issue. Look, but the problem was, the voters reacted because, unlike the rest of us who are all wallowing around the gutter this campaign, on both sides, what’s happened is people were offended by it. They said in front of 51 million people you mention that and use that that way, it bothers them. And the problem, what I’m saying is, it’s strategic, because the problem is African-Americans, the enthusiasm problem. And part of it because of cross-pressuring that’s gone on gay marriage. We saw this in Missouri. The 71% vote in Missouri, was carried--you could take all 40 Republican counties that voted Republican three out of the last four times, and that would have gotten 60% of the vote. And St Louis--

COLMES: Rich Masters, I’m not sure this was as calculated as some would like to believe. Honestly, I mean, I don’t know--

CADDELL: Come on, Alan, I wasn’t born yesterday.

COLMES: Let’s give Rich a chance to respond. I mean, do you honestly think he had this little phrase in his back pocket--

CADDELL: You think that both of them did this by coincidence? Oh come on guys--

COLMES: Let’s go to Rich Masters.

MASTERS: First of all, I think Pat Caddell is a smart guy, but I just didn’t understand what he just got done saying.

CADDELL: What I’m saying is the blacks aren’t voting--

MASTERS: Here’s the bottom line, just listen. The reason that the Bush-Cheney folks are trying to talk about this right now is because they want to--listen, if you’ve been to a magic show with David Copperfield, he creates this big smoke. And whenever he’s looking at the smoke he’s over here doing this. And this is exactly the reason--

CADDELL: Well Rich, please tell me what the comment “fair game” is?

MASTERS: --that right now we are trying to talk about this particular issue as opposed to talking about that fact that he’s going to be the first President to lose jobs.

COLMES: Pat, let me ask you this. Was Lynn Cheney over the top when she said John Kerry is not a good man? I mean, was that a--

CADDELL: I thought that was, she was obviously angry. I thought it was too much, actually, frankly. But I’m saying is, you’ve got this huge issue coming, it’s like a level five hurricane coming, and nobody’s even talking about it in this country. And what it does to the Democratic base is serious. And what it does to blacks is it cross-pressures them into not voting. That’s what--

COLMES: Don’t you think the Republicans want to talk about this because they’re not talking about the other issues on which they lost in the debates? They’d rather talk about this than the jobs issue, than the Iraq war, the domestic issues they’re losing.

CADDELL: I didn’t pick this.

MASTERS: Pat Caddell is exactly right. There is a five hurricane heading down our way, and it’s called an unbelievable three trillion dollar deficit, that we’re going to pass on to our kids and grand kids.

HANNITY: Hey Rich, you are a walking, boring cliche.

MASTERS: Oh come on, Sean, you can do better than that.

HANNITY: Can you please for five seconds put those stupid points aside.

MASTERS: They’re not.

HANNITY: And if you can’t speak intelligently why are you even here? Pat, this is a problem with these guys. They can’t answer a direct question.

MASTERS: Give me a direct question.

HANNITY: What’s happening with your Party, Pat, and you’ve warned them. They’re using the VP’s daughter, they’re saying she’s fair game. They’re telling the wheelchair-bound--hang on--

CADDELL: Look, you’ve got this stuff, the rest of the country saw the reaction of these people in the focus group. When Jesse Jackson’s out with the next stuff about this, the President is pursuing the ideology of the Confederacy, I’m telling you this stuff, trying to rack up the vote--

HANNITY: The Taliban wing of the Party?

CADDELL: This is going to backfire, folks. This Michael Mooreism doesn’t work this way.

HANNITY: Pat let me ask you, this is your party.

MASTERS: No no no no, Sean, give me a direct question.

HANNITY: No Rich. Rich, I’ll get to you. This is for Pat. Because this is your party you’re talking to here, Pat. Look at it in context. They say the VP’s daughter is fair game. They lie and say there’s an effort to suppress the black vote to motivate their base. They lie every single day and say there’s an effort to bring back the draft in this country. They say the wheelchair-bound will get up and walk if they are elected President. They lie and say old people are going to be pushed out of the middle class here. And they say the Republicans invoking Jim Crowe, and the Taliban wing of the Republican Party. Is this going to destroy your party?

CADDELL: The problem is, and this is an example of what happened in the reaction to the debate that I’ve been worried about, is ordinary Americans who don’t spend their time in politics playing this game, their reaction was visceral. And you saw the interviews where people say, that wasn’t right to do that, that wasn’t right to do that.

HANNITY: Yeah.

CADDELL: He shouldn’t mention her in front of 51 million people. That wasn’t necessary. It was calculated, and people reacted. And it’s going to backfire.

HANNITY: But Pat, they’re not listening to you. They’re not listening to you and Joe Lieberman and Evan Bayh and Zell Miller--you’re ostracized from this party.

CADDELL: There is a limit to this.

HANNITY: Which I think is great. Because the Michael Moores have taken over the Democratic Party. And it’s embodied by the number one liberal in the country, the number one tax and spender in the world, and the weakest guy on defense and intelligence.

CADDELL: Well, there you go--

HANNITY: That’s why we’re going to win this election.

CADDELL: There you go again.

HANNITY: There I go again.

CADDELL: The problem is, I’ll tell you this, is that Kerry, for the first time in three months, I thought Kerry looked like he was really moving ahead, coming out of that debate. When I was going through the polls, I thought for the first time, I thought the Bush people really were in real trouble. Now this has backfired.

COLMES: All right, let me--

HANNITY: Hey Rich, have you gotten off your talking points yet?

MASTERS: Now Sean, you ought to do better than that. You haven’t heard a talking point yet.

COLMES: Rich, you know what it is, these are the guys who wanted to put in a constitutional amendment, and this is a reaction to that. This is their agenda.

MASTERS: Well listen, the bottom line is, does anyone in America honestly believe that Thomas Jefferson and the Founding Fathers are rolling around in their graves, saying, Jeez, if we had just thrown in that ban on gay marriage, the Bill of Rights would have been a whole lot better? Listen, the bottom line is, the reason we’re talking about this--

HANNITY: Leave the children alone. Leave the children alone, Rich.

CADDELL: Let me tell you something--

COLMES: Rich, you get to finish. Rich, you get to finish your comments. Go ahead.

MASTERS: --the reason we’re talking about this is it’s a wedge issue, Sean, now.

CADDELL: When 70% of African-American voters who are Democrats feel more strongly about this or equally as strongly as white evangelical right-wing Christians, you’ve got a problem when you talk like that. The fact of the matter is, 75% is not a wedge issue.

COLMES: All right, we’re out of time. We--

MASTERS: It is a wedge issue.

COLMES: Pat, we’ve got to go. Just out of time. Thank you guys.

Update: "Newshound" deborah "reports" on the above in her usual creative way. For example, the trademarked counterfeit quote:

"For 5 seconds, if you can't say anything intelligent then why are you here?"

Never mind that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense the way deborah re-worded it. Why go through the trouble of changing what was said and putting quotation marks around it? It would seem easier to just report the words as spoken:

HANNITY: Can you please for five seconds put those stupid points aside. And if you can’t speak intelligently why are you even here?

And there's the unsupported allegation of fictitious bias:

Caddell [sic] take on the Mary Cheney flap was right on target with the Fox move to accuse Kerry of manipulating minority voters.

What "Fox move" is that? Is there even one example of anyone on Fox making that argument about the Mary Cheney comment? This is the first time we heard anyone with this particular take on the incident (which is why we created the instant transcript). So based on what does debbie claim that this is all part of a "Fox move"? Her imagination!

The Dem strategist, Rick Martin, was never allowed to speak...

Well, if deborah is claiming that Ricky Martin didn't get to speak, she may have a point. Unfortunately, the "Dem strategist" was Rich Masters, not Ricky Martin. And the transcript shows debbie's claim that he wasn't allowed to speak to be what she might call a total lie, a blatant lie, a downright lie.

Hannity has become a real liability for Fox. Too many outbursts and too many lies.

Look who's talking.

posted: Sat - October 16, 2004 at 12:42 AM       j$p  send 
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