1/6/09 12:37 PM

Monday Links & Open Thread

Latest cable news links [updated through the day]:

MSNBC: the place for ping-pong.

Keith kapitulates: dumps Dana, slams him after he's gone.

Neil Cavuto's return: video.

Friday's numbers.

Novak prognosis: "dire". The end of an era.

Edwards buzz: cablers cautious.

Murdoch mystifies markets.

Free speech? Not for Nancy! Video: Kelly's Court exonerates Grace.

Q&A: Keith Olbermann.

Greta: Korean minders and high-fives. How they got in. Remember the Pueblo? Reptilian rotgut; bigwigs.

This is DNN?

"Twins" out, gravitas in?

Is there a cable news bounce?

Cody Willard: sailin' on.

Fox News cameraman rescues Marine:
Use our valuable bandwidth to post your comments on any and all cable news topics in today's open thread. Standard rules apply.




Mike C.
The NYT piece was more pro-Man on Fan PR. No, thanks.
August 4, 2008, 1:36:14 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
Interesting NYT piece. I glance at the ratings from time-to-time, but I don't think I had realized that Olbermann had doubled, nor did I realize FNC was down as much as it is. I suppose in some measure that reflects the wider political reality, a younger electorate drawn to a more cutting edge presentation, and a less engaged, or at least less passionate older electorate. I have actually reached a stage, probably to end about the time of the conventions, that I have little use for the noise of cable or traditional broadcast news. PBS and NPR seem to be the right tone for me at the point, serious, to the point, not too much repetition, not too much simplification.
August 4, 2008, 8:04:33 AM EDT – Like – Reply


sharm
I could access the NYT initially but now it is blocked for non-members... I did get a look at it which linked a 2006 article about Olbermann's numbers. There was no mention of Fox.
August 4, 2008, 8:37:06 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
I'm a member, and I can't access at the moment, Sharon. In essence, FNC was down 17% but still the most viewed.
August 4, 2008, 10:02:44 AM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
FNC down 17%.....Folk are obviously beginning to see FNC for what they are and tuning out....Very welcome news.
August 4, 2008, 12:14:38 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Sure thing, "haggis." What's your excuse for O'Reilly subs pummeling Olbermann on a regular basis? More peolpe watch Nancy Grace than your hero. Sad news, no?

Edited By Siteowner
August 4, 2008, 12:31:47 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mike C.
Way to acknowledge.
I hope somebody brings the gavel down on Nancy Grace. She gives legal commentary and analysis a bad name.
August 4, 2008, 12:48:31 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
I'm with you about Grace. Deplorable.
August 4, 2008, 12:53:37 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Ashley
Great shot of the Pueblo, well done Greta and team!
 
I notice the FNC 17% decline that Haggi is jumping for joy over. Reading the article the results are a little vague. It only applies to the "demo" that some here crow about. It also says its 17 down from 2004, so this isn't something new. It does not say if that is a steady decline or not, that can have a big impact on how to analyse the stats. For all we know, it was actually down 20% as of last year with an increase this year. Don't know except that the current ratings for FNC are the best in the business, CNN and MSNBC, both operating as cable news outlets for far longer than FNC, don't even come close to FNC in ratings.
 
I can understand why most cable news viewers avoid Keith "Czechoslovakia" Olbermann, especially after seeing how he gets gleeful over the thought of our senior citizens dying.
August 4, 2008, 12:56:48 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
You can make any channel "up" or "down" in the ratings depending on the date you pick to start from.
August 4, 2008, 1:00:59 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Ashley
BOR's ratings were terrific on Thursday. In "the" demo, he was almost 70% higher than K"C"O, and in overall, almost 250% higher.
 
Pretty fine I say. Afterall, it makes sense because FNC is the most popular cable news network, and BOR is a man with 100% credibility.
August 4, 2008, 1:25:50 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
I'm with you about Grace. Deplorable.
Mark | 08.04.08 - 12:58 pm | #  
 
What does that make Olbermann if Grace has a larger audience?
August 4, 2008, 1:56:22 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
olby sucks | 08.04.08 - 12:36 pm |
 
FNC are still down 17%....So trying to change the subject just doesn't cut the mustard.
August 4, 2008, 2:00:02 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
Fewer people saw "The Effect of Gamma Rays on Man in the Moon Marigolds" than saw "Cats". Does that make "Cats" better theatre, or just more popular?  
 
More beef is eaten in the US than sushi. Does that make beef better for you, or just more popular?
August 4, 2008, 2:00:51 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
BOR is a man with 100% credibility.
Ashley | 08.04.08 - 1:30 pm | #  
 
Sorry....But LMAO :lol:  
"You cannot be serious!"...As a great tennis player once said.
August 4, 2008, 2:04:13 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
Mark, I applaud your breaking from convention and challenging Haggis in that way. Free thinking is always welcome at J$P. Critical thinking is even better.
August 4, 2008, 2:04:34 PM EDT – Like – Reply


DeeKay
FNC does so much better than MSNBC or CNN on a regular basis that even loosing 17% still makes them AHEAD of the other two. Period.
 
The better FNC does ratings-wise, the more hollering and screaming and ranting against FNC the liberal left seems to do. I think they're just jealous.
August 4, 2008, 2:07:03 PM EDT – Like – Reply


vstol
So trying to change the subject just doesn't cut the mustard.
HaggisFarmer | 08.04.08 - 2:05 pm  
 
This is how "to change the subject."
 
More Democrats watch Fox News than watch MSNBC.
August 4, 2008, 2:16:24 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
FNC are always telling everyone what the mainstream media aren't telling folk...So I'm assuming FNC don't class themselves as mainstream...So what are they?....The "fringestream".
August 4, 2008, 2:19:01 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Talk about changing the subject! Good one, "haggis!"
August 4, 2008, 2:23:30 PM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
More Democrats watch Fox News than watch MSNBC.
vstol | 08.04.08 - 2:21 pm |
 
That is an interesting statement.I'm not going to argue that point with you,but I can't help but wonder who these people are. Are they the once mighty legion of "Reagan Democrats? It does wonder me.
 
Has anyone met a Democratic Obama supporter who watched fair and balanced Fox news? Are their any who post here. One would think there should be.
 
Following is a link to Pew,who did some audience research. Some interesting stats on the peculiarities of the Fox audience.You might find it interesting.
 
http://people-press.org/report/348/internet-news-audience-highly-critical-of-news-organizations
August 4, 2008, 2:49:48 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Sad to hear about Bob Novak, Johhny. It seems all the genuine characters of the world are on their way out.
August 4, 2008, 3:27:56 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Keith came out with a cracker last week...."Don't worry, Bill, you're still dominating that important demographic, 65 to dead,"
Keith also informed us of some info BOR didn't tell his viewers....In July Countdown was the No.1 rated show in the 18-34 demo...The sort of demo results advertisers wet themselves about.
Keith, keep up the good work.
August 4, 2008, 3:38:54 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
You are free to post whatever odd opinions you may like, but you are not free to post nonsense without repercussions. What kind of mushrooms were you eating when you said advertisers sell to the 18-34 demo? I am aware of no time slots, on any cable news station, that sell to advertisers based on that demo. Zero. I'm not even sure that demo is used by any cable station. ETA: I don't know why anyone would, as that is hardly the most affluent, or most profligate, slice of the audience in any event.
 
If your sole purpose here is to needle and instigate, at least do so with facts, not stuff made up out of thin air.
August 4, 2008, 4:01:04 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
The O’Reilly Factor/Sub*- 2,635,000 viewers (585,000)  
CNN Election Center– 577,000 viewers (219,000)
Countdown w. Olbermann – 1,097,000 viewers (346,000)
The Suze Orman Show -303,000 viewers (83,000)
Nancy Grace – 811,000 viewers (289,000)
 
:lol:
August 4, 2008, 4:07:07 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Johnny, the whole question of ratings drops and such seems similar to the thing about some program being cut because it didn't receive a projected yearly increase in revenue.
August 4, 2008, 4:29:04 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mike C.
The best thing for the rest of us to do is not buy in to the instigation.
Within a half hour of learning Braves play-by-play announcer Skip Caray had died, I learned the Bob Novak dire prognosis news. It's very tragic.
August 4, 2008, 4:32:14 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mike C.
I mean a very tragic turn of events.
August 4, 2008, 4:32:51 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
johnny dollar | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 4:06 pm |
 
I didn't post a link as you have an extreme dislike to links being posted in here and then you tend to delete the whole post.
Here's the link to the video where Keith lets rip.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0VNOiHFErI
 
I'm sure "our man" Ailes will have something to say on all this. :lol;
August 4, 2008, 4:34:14 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
What kind of mushrooms were you eating
johnny dollar | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 4:06 pm |
 
Funny you should mention mushrooms...I had some with my steak, just before posting that comment.....Asda (Wal-Mart owned) may be using laced mushrooms to silence Republican critics world wide...We all know how their trying to fix the election...Now don't we
August 4, 2008, 4:43:00 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
I'm familiar with the video you linked to, HF. Does it include the part where Keith lied and said the numbers O'Reilly gave out were wrong? Usually when Keith let's something rip, that's a good sign that he's lying.
August 4, 2008, 4:50:43 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Actually, Haggis, I think the problem isn't with the mushrooms, it's with your steak,  
 
Paranoid delusions are one of the first signals of the sort of brain degeneration found in Mad Cow Disease.
August 4, 2008, 4:59:01 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
johnny dollar | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 4:55 pm |
 
It's funny how left/right see the complete opposite from each other...BOR doesn't even have to go into let ripe mode for lies to come forth and multiply.
Please point out Keiths lie.
August 4, 2008, 5:01:21 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Cecelia | 08.04.08 - 5:04 pm |
 
Sorry to disappoint...The steak was clean....How do I know I hear you say...Check the 2nd part of my name for the answer.
August 4, 2008, 5:06:04 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Guest
Keith came out with a cracker last week...."Don't worry, Bill, you're still dominating that important demographic, 65 to dead,"
Haggy -  
 
Why should Bill worry? Besides what Keith "C" Olbermann calls that demo, as despicable as it sounds, getting gleeful over the seniors dying; BOR still dominates the overall demo and the 18-54 demo.
 
BOR Rocks!
August 4, 2008, 5:08:01 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Well, then, HF, we'll just have to assume your insanity isn't from a known organic cause, and that you just come by it naturally.
August 4, 2008, 5:08:26 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Anonymous | 08.04.08 - 5:13 pm |
 
Please point out where Keith was "gleeful over the seniors dying"?
August 4, 2008, 5:11:50 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Ashley
Anonymous | 08.04.08 - 5:13 pm | #  
 
That was me.
August 4, 2008, 5:20:46 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Ashley
Has anyone heard K"C"O apologize for his lie/mistake he made last week over the F&F comments? Or is this just another example of how he never admits his mistakes, lies through his teeth, and simply adds lies to lies in an effort to cover up his incompetence?
 
Now I understand the li'l fella is implying that Bush was behind the Ivins suicide as well as the entire anthrax scare in 2001/2002.
August 4, 2008, 5:28:36 PM EDT – Like – Reply


cee
Why is "65 to death" as a demo not sought after by advertisers? I thought our nation's wealth was being concentrated in this demo and I see so many investment firms targeting this generation with MOTOWN classics in their commercials.
 
Also, is this not the demo the nightly news casts seek as well....my goodness, why the prejudice?
 
I think the parcing of these ratings is insider silliness and Olbermann is simply massaging his always wounded delicate ego.
 
Like I said at OW, I really wish he would just keep the therapy sessions private (In his dressing room, to his Katy or to his 'current' poor assistant) and leave it there.
 
When MSNBC beats FNC in overall ratings, consistently, then I think it will matter. It will never happen because the product is poor and only appeals to a fringe political group, but stranger things have happened in TV history.
August 4, 2008, 5:42:06 PM EDT – Like – Reply


david smawley
Friday night results: #1 Demo - guest host Laura Ingraham #2 Demo Edward R. OLB. #1 Total Audience - guest host Laura Ingraham #2 Total Audience Edward R. OlB. Bring on Maddow, according to KO she dominates Factor guest hosts!
August 4, 2008, 5:48:03 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Grammie
Mike, is Skip Caray Harry Caray's son? He must be a fairly young man if he is.
August 4, 2008, 5:48:26 PM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
"adds lies to lies"
 
Now I understand the li'l fella is implying that Bush was behind the Ivins suicide as well as the entire anthrax scare in 2001/2002.
Ashley | 08.04.08 - 5:33 pm |  
 
Now I think you're lying.And I don't mean lying with the queen.Now lie down and be careful with the lye,it'll burn.
 
Now to KO's lies. Unless this is the kind of "he implied it" crap that I've so frequently encountered here, I think you better lie low unless you can clearly demonstrate the truth of what you post.Otherwise one might conclude that you lye. Lye is to clean roots out of the drain field.
August 4, 2008, 5:53:30 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Please point out where Keith was "gleeful over the seniors dying"?
HaggisFarmer | 08.04.08 - 5:16 pm | #  
 
Olbermann: "But don't worry, Bill, you're still dominating that important demographic, 65 to dead." Notably, in June 2006, Olbermann gloated that O'Reilly's viewers are "dying off."
August 4, 2008, 5:53:42 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Ashley
From TV Newser
 
In the A25-54 demo, the demo most commonly used by the cablers to sell advertising, the Factor averaged 444,000 viewers and Countdown averaged 347,000.
 
"Don't worry, Bill, you're still dominating that important demographic, 65 to dead," Olbermann said.
 
But, it turns out older viewers do turn out for Olbermann too.
Countdown averaged 320,000 in 65+, more than double his average in the A18-34 demo (134,000).  
*************************
Let's recap:
 
- K"C"O has more 65-dead viewers than he has 18-34, twice as many.
 
- BOR is stomping K"C"O in the 25-54 demo,
 
- BOR is a winner
 
- K"C"O is a loser.
August 4, 2008, 5:56:54 PM EDT – Like – Reply


david smawley
Skip Carey was 68, his son Chip does Braves stuff as well.
August 4, 2008, 6:00:07 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
[message deleted for rules violation: abuse]

Edited By Siteowner
August 4, 2008, 6:09:11 PM EDT – Like – Reply


right again
Go Haggis! you rock this site!
August 4, 2008, 6:17:39 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mike C.
>Mike, is Skip Caray Harry Caray's son?<
Yes. He was Harry Caray Jr. Skip was a nickname. Chip is Harry Caray III.
August 4, 2008, 6:20:30 PM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
- K"C"O is a loser.
Ashley | 08.04.08 - 6:01 pm |
 
Oh, for Vishnu's sake, do you have to be so obvious about your bias.You delete Haggis for abuse,but permit the above?
August 4, 2008, 6:21:21 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
FNC have been making some tremendous gaffs lately....I'm beginning to think Keith may have a mole planted there....I just can't understand how you name a person in a picture wrongly...Any ideas?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNjUSc6rAKM
August 4, 2008, 6:22:16 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
haggis, maybe you should ask tom brokaw and chris mathews. They have both done it. Mathews more than once.
August 4, 2008, 6:27:11 PM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
OK, Ashley.
 
KO implied,right. Like I've seen the far right read what Dick Durbin and John Kerry "implied" in some of their statements,to name just 2.I myself have been accused of "implying" many things that had never entered my mind. The inferences that some people find in others words borders on paranoia.
 
Do you have quotes from KO where he "implied".I remain quite skeptical.
August 4, 2008, 6:27:13 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Ashley
I remember when a cable news channel, not FNC, identified a guest as "n word" and they used the word.
August 4, 2008, 6:29:47 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Olbermann used the words "presumed suicide" 3 times. He also invoked McCain/Bush more than once. You watched, you already know this.
August 4, 2008, 6:30:35 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
notveryhow | 08.04.08 - 6:26 pm |
 
I know....I don't think the "our man" Ailes goes down very well....We all know how "fair and balanced" they really are....What was H.W thinking.
August 4, 2008, 6:32:08 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
haggis, why do you keep diverting from topic to topic? After you've been proven wrong you just come back with another off-topic c&p.
August 4, 2008, 6:33:03 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
olby sucks | 08.04.08 - 6:32 pm |
 
Your right there OS....But they said it...They didn't name a picture wrongly....Very different.
August 4, 2008, 6:34:12 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
HaggisFarmer | 08.04.08 - 6:37 pm | # 
 
Nice diversion. Hiding under nvh's skirt, now?
August 4, 2008, 6:34:17 PM EDT – Like – Reply


david smawley
I think there are several moles on this site as well, though they are quite easy to spot. A real mole hides their bias and is effective in not letting the other side spot them easily, like going on the kennel site and making negative comments that the pound can't quite figure out so they are not deleted. Don't see anyone here with that kind of talent. I'll keep looking though.
August 4, 2008, 6:35:24 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Having a pic of obama up and saying "osama bin ladin" is diferent? :lol:
August 4, 2008, 6:36:08 PM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
Oblio,
 
I've seen you do it repeatedly. Are you one of those poor fools who think it is an insult to refer to men as the female gender.You must be very popular with the ladies.
August 4, 2008, 6:37:18 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Don't see anyone here with that kind of talent. I'll keep looking though.
david smawley | 08.04.08 - 6:40 pm | # 
 
I wouldn't label it as talen, but, look no further than mark.
August 4, 2008, 6:37:57 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
olby sucks | 08.04.08 - 6:41 pm |
 
Someone had to type the name under the picture...I'm supposing he/she could see the picture while typing the name...So it's hard to see how someone could make this mistake.
August 4, 2008, 6:38:38 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Ashley
From Ashley - Now I understand the li'l fella is implying that Bush was behind the Ivins suicide as well as the entire anthrax scare in 2001/2002.
Ashley | 08.04.08 - 5:33 pm | 
 
From NVH - Now I think you're lying.And I don't mean lying with the queen.Now lie down and be careful with the lye,it'll burn.
 
Now me again...
 
Think all you want. I am not lying, it IS what I understand, based on the show transcripts I've been reading and my own analysis of past Olby lies, ommissions of fact, and misdirection. Also, are you advocating that I injure myself or someone else with lye?
August 4, 2008, 6:39:58 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
You must be very popular with the ladies.
notveryhow | 08.04.08 - 6:42 pm | 
 
How did you know?
August 4, 2008, 6:40:00 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
nvh, you better switch back over to mark. You've dug yourself hole.
August 4, 2008, 6:43:10 PM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
Also, are you advocating that I injure myself or someone else with lye?
 
you're joking,right.Or do you really think I implied that? Gotta say,it wouldn't suprise me.
 
I remain skeptical of your interpretation. Now I wouldn't ordinarily call a difference of interpretation a lie, but you use the term rather loosely,so I thought I'd play along.Do you have a link to said transcripts, I'd like to read that.
August 4, 2008, 6:45:33 PM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
You've dug yourself hole.
oblio| 08.04.08 - 6:48 pm |
 
Yea, I dig myself.In fact,I think I'm pretty groovy.
August 4, 2008, 6:47:07 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Go Haggis! you rock this site!
right again | 08.04.08 - 6:22 pm |
 
Well there's a man/woman who knows common sense when he/she sees it...Cheers.
August 4, 2008, 6:47:26 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
That's one of your cowardly newshound cohorts, haggis.
August 4, 2008, 6:49:36 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
BTY, haggis, you've claimedyou post on nwshounds, why do you use a different name over there? What is it?
August 4, 2008, 6:51:42 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
There's no hypocrisy factor for Democrats, so the media feels free to shield them from their indiscretions.
 
Saintly support for nationalized health care or publicly financed day care centers covers a multitude of sins. No matter if it's personal conduct that belies the values of their feminist constituency and turns their smiling family posturings into the campaign PR crap that it must have only been.
 
Who cares... they can't be hypocrites, they'll vote against drilling...
August 4, 2008, 6:52:18 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
olby sucks | 08.04.08 - 6:54 pm |
 
You keep going on about NH...But I never post there....So no one knows me at NH...But you seem to know better....So please link to some of my numerous posts from over there.
August 4, 2008, 6:52:59 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
These are you words, haggis. "Newshounds is doing a great service." Remember?
August 4, 2008, 6:54:20 PM EDT – Like – Reply


john t
[message deleted for rules violation: personal attack]

Edited By Siteowner
August 4, 2008, 6:55:01 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
olby sucks | 08.04.08 - 6:59 pm |
 
And they are....But I never post there.
August 4, 2008, 6:55:57 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Speaking of lies. I thought you were "banned" t-ghost?
August 4, 2008, 6:58:13 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mike C.
Everybody having fun?
August 4, 2008, 7:01:21 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Ashley, you are correct. If Olbermann didn't come right out and say that Bush was responsible for the anthrax scares, Keith did his usual trick of at least pandering to his audience of nuts who hold such theories. That's why he repeated promoed the piece by trumpeting that it was "an inside job". 
 
Now THAT may be something Olbermann has to dance around a bit, (like he did when insinuating via rhetorical question that Bush made some sort of secret deal to get the folks being held in Iran back-- thus breaking expressed WH policy) but he had no trouble espousing the theory that the WH used a terrorist act that it knew was domestic rather than foreign, to bolster war with Iraq.
August 4, 2008, 7:01:33 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
After I deleted a msg because it was a personal attack on another poster (what a surprise!), I nuked several that responded to it. Get this thread back on track.
August 4, 2008, 7:06:07 PM EDT – Like – Reply


john t
[message deleted for rules violations: personal attack, name-calling]

Edited By Siteowner
August 4, 2008, 7:08:00 PM EDT – Like – Reply


john t
[message deleted for rules violations: name calling, personal attack - warning]

Edited By Siteowner
August 4, 2008, 7:11:27 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
My goodness...This blogging malarkey is taken very seriously...I think everyone needs a nice strong cup of tea.
August 4, 2008, 7:17:39 PM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
Cecelia | 08.04.08 - 6:57 pm |
 
I'm assuming you are commenting on the Edwards rumors.Is there ANYTHING more to this than National Inquirer?
 
As for bias,yes,that bad media.And they didn't say a dang word about Monica, did they?
 
But by gum,why would the media not want to pile on a man whose wife is dying of cancer on the basis of the National Inquirer. I mena,it's not like the media has a heart or anything.
 
As for philandering. Depending on whose numbers you like,between 40 and 70% of married people (male and female)have affairs at some point in their married life, and the incident goes up as income rises (opportunity?).Perhaps this is a matter better addressed within the hoome.
August 4, 2008, 7:20:20 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Chromium
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, RUSH LIMBAUGH!
 
According to the transcript for last Friday's Meltdown, Bathtub Boy claimed that earlier that day, Bush 43, Bush 41, and Jeb phoned Rush to wish him a happy birthday.
 
According to multiple sources, Rush was actually born on January 12, 1951, not in August.
 
Which is more accurate: "Keith Olbermann wrong again" or "Keith Olbermann still wrong"?
 
The quote:
 
But our winners, the family Bush and comedian Rush Limbaugh. The 41st president, the 43 president and the innocent bystander, the former Florida governor, phoned into the Limbaugh show today to wish him a happy birthday.
 
The source:
 
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26010596/
August 4, 2008, 7:24:26 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Rush was actually born on January 12, 1951, not in August.
Chromium | 08.04.08 - 7:29 pm |
 
Please come back after some research...:lol:
August 4, 2008, 7:30:26 PM EDT – Like – Reply


john t
[message deleted for rules violations: name calling, personal attack, vulgar language - prescription: another trip to Exile Island!]

Edited By Siteowner
August 4, 2008, 7:31:25 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Chromium
Haggis farmer:
 
I am back!
 
Some research, via Wikipedia:
 
Rush Hudson Limbaugh III (born January 12, 1951)
August 4, 2008, 7:34:42 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Vince P
Such emotional instablity. how sad
August 4, 2008, 7:34:55 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Chromium | 08.04.08 - 7:39 pm |
 
Spot on...I can't fault you there...But please check what birthday they were celebrating before saying Keith was wrong again.
August 4, 2008, 7:36:59 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Vince P, your back from Mr Colmes site....No one listening
August 4, 2008, 7:38:36 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
They were celebrating the show's 20th anniversary, not anyone's b-day.
 
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_080108/content/01125106.guest.html
August 4, 2008, 7:38:49 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Fox Fan | 08.04.08 - 7:43 pm |
 
Thank you FF
August 4, 2008, 7:39:38 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Grammie
"I could care less about this pitiful site."
 
Well if you let me know what you think would the final straw to cause you to care less for this site I for one would be happy to oblige you b/c I COULDN'T care less what you think.
August 4, 2008, 7:45:33 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Imagine if I had said what Chromium said....J$ would have pounced on me like a hawk with extended talons :lol:
August 4, 2008, 7:47:07 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Vince P
[message deleted for rules violation: name-calling]

Edited By Siteowner
August 4, 2008, 7:47:53 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
> Imagine if I had said what Chromium said...
 
I have no idea what Chromium said that you consider objectionable, and I don't want you to tell me. Speculating about what moderation I might or might not do is definitely not on topic here.
August 4, 2008, 7:55:22 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Good to see Cavuto back on air...I didn't realise he had had surgery....I may disagree with him 99% of the time but I wish him no harm.
August 4, 2008, 7:56:12 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
I have no idea what Chromium said that you consider objectionable,
johnny dollar | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 8:00 pm |
 
He said nothing objectionable....Just got the facts very wrong.
August 4, 2008, 7:58:56 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
I can think of a few better acronyms for DNN than Jossip's "Death News Network".
August 4, 2008, 8:04:46 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
No he didn't and stop claiming he did. Olbermann screwed up, said they were calling him to wish him a Happy Birthday. Olby didn't know any better; he lifted it from a blue blog that made the same mistake. Of course he didn't bother to fact-check. That's par for the course. So stop claiming Chromium was wrong when he wasn't.
August 4, 2008, 8:05:19 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
Haggis, the funniest part of it is that MSNBC's website still has the Bush call depicted as a happy birthday conversation.
 
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26010596/
 
I think Chromium was indicating that MSNBC was wrong but did not know the true nature of the call.
August 4, 2008, 8:06:54 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
nvh, actually, the media sat on the Lewinsky story for quite a while until it was put out by Drudge. 
 
As to the National Enquirer story, it's news when a prominent politician, and a man who was, in most people's minds, the likely Obama VP candidate-- on his VP list when the story broke garners this sort of story. Edwards has been linked to the woman that he was visiting at 2am before, and there are hotel staff who have publicly made statements about Edward's behavior.
 
It would be nice if both sides were held to the hypocrisy factor equally.
August 4, 2008, 8:10:01 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
Hey Cecelia, email johnny for my email address. Thanks,
 
-FF
August 4, 2008, 8:11:40 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Chromium
Haggis Farmer:
 
The Bushes called Rush to congratulate him on his show's 20th anniversary, not Rush's birthday. Another error from Keith Olbermann, as I noted.
 
There was no "birthday" involved. Please cite your reference that states otherwise.
August 4, 2008, 8:13:07 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
Don't forget that Fox News confirmed the story through the hotel security that Edwards was there and hiding in the bathroom. Likely tapping his toes with a wide stance, but that is unconfirmed.
August 4, 2008, 8:13:21 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
johnny dollar | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 8:10 pm |
 
To be honest I don't think it really matters....The point of the segment was about the "our man" Ailes comment by H.W....Oops! We're on the air?
August 4, 2008, 8:16:06 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
You didn't focus on that point before Haggis. Ailes is an HW fan, that is established. 
 
BTW, I'm still keeping an eye out for that Theaksus's Old Peculiar.
August 4, 2008, 8:19:22 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
Theaksun's
August 4, 2008, 8:19:52 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
A pretty pointless point. Both of them had worked with Ailes at one point in their lives. I notice that Keith didn't bother to include Rush's response to the Ailes question either.
August 4, 2008, 8:20:26 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Chromium
Haggis Farmer:
 
Keith Olbermann routinely makes mistakes by lifting items from sources without checking. This is bad.
 
Then he does not correct these errors. This is worse.
 
Regardless of the "point" he may have tried to make, he made yet another "unchecked item" mistake. It matters.
August 4, 2008, 8:23:42 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Theakston
Fox Fan | 08.04.08 - 8:24 pm |
 
It's well worth looking out for....I'd be surprised if they didn't export to the U.S.
 
It was the "our man" comment that got me...As if he's in their (Republicans) pocket.
August 4, 2008, 8:28:09 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
I think Keith Olbermann holds to the Dan Rather journalistic principle of "fake but accurate".
August 4, 2008, 8:29:41 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Cecelia | 08.04.08 - 8:34 pm |
 
Much like BOR then?
August 4, 2008, 8:32:10 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
I'm going to have to disagree, Haggis. BOR backs up his opinions with facts. Olby pulls lies from blue blogs and claims that they're facts.
August 4, 2008, 8:33:31 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Fox Fan | 08.04.08 - 8:38 pm |
 
I'm sorry to bring up this old chestnut again....The Paris Business Review was was used by BOR to back up his opinion...Not good as we found out.
August 4, 2008, 8:39:48 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
I'm not familiar with that situation, but I am familiar with scores of Olbermann lies based on bad sources. Accidental? Unlikely. A recent example is his lifting a lie from Newshounds and getting caught by J$ a week or two ago.
August 4, 2008, 8:41:59 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Haggis, Rather actually argued the concept. 
 
As usual, your "I know you are but what am I" line of rebuttal is just really working for you...
August 4, 2008, 8:42:21 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
> A recent example is his lifting a lie from Newshounds and getting caught by J$ a week or two ago.
 
Say, has Keith run a correction on that yet? Made an apology?
 
Don't bother; rhetorical questions.
August 4, 2008, 8:43:59 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Folks, you have to read Olbermann's Kos diary entry about Dana Milbank to believe it!!
 
Keith actually says that Milbank had been under a "cloud" at Countdown for a column he wrote that had been critical of Obama! 
 
Evidently, Milbank has gotten a contract as an analysis at another network, and has spared Keith from having to hold an inquisition into heresy...
August 4, 2008, 8:46:07 PM EDT – Like – Reply


vstol
Someone had to type the name under the picture...I'm supposing he/she could see the picture while typing the name...So it's hard to see how someone could make this mistake.
HaggisFarmer | 08.04.08 - 6:43 pm | 
 
Getting the facts wrong- a highly contagious and chronic physical, mental and spiritual illness with displayed symptoms of ego mania, inferiority, dillusions of adequacy and a false sense of being funny. Easily prevented by inoculation.
 
Chyron or Infini operators DO NOT "type the name under the picture."
 
They either pre-type from a run sheet and store it or type on the fly what a graphics coordinator or producer tells them to type. Either way, the operator rarely sees the "picture" or the live feed monitor that the graphic is matted over. 
 
Usually happens something like this:
Director-"still store, give me Osama. Preview still store, matt Chyron B, take prevue." 
 
That's when the yelling and cussing starts
August 4, 2008, 8:48:17 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
vstol | 08.04.08 - 8:53 pm |
 
What you say may well be true...I've never worked in an entertainment studio...But I'd have though someone would check these things before firing them on air...It's a lot different than someone saying it.
August 4, 2008, 8:56:45 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
Excellent inside view, vstol. Haggis, "entertainment studio"? News sells, but it has to be more than just entertainment to do so.
August 4, 2008, 8:59:13 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Chromium
Haggis Farmer said:
 
I'm sorry to bring up this old chestnut again....The Paris Business Review was was used by BOR...
 
Yes, in a debate BOR he made a claim and backed it up with his source, which Media Matters could not locate. Not on his program, but in a debate.
 
Contrast that with KO, who routinely lifts from dubious sources without even an attempt at citation.
August 4, 2008, 9:05:59 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
Thanks for that. I always wondered where that came from. So it was in a debate, and he got the name wrong of whatever it was he intended to cite. Quite a different kettle of fish from broadcasting false stories from blue blogs and then refusing to correct them.
August 4, 2008, 9:11:49 PM EDT – Like – Reply


vstol
Live TV is like making sausage. The less you know about the production process, the better.
 
I was taught, by one of the best, there are 2 things necessary for excellance in producing live TV: 1. preparation 2. anticipation
 
I have noticed that production values at Fox News decline in the summer.
August 4, 2008, 9:12:01 PM EDT – Like – Reply


John-O
Johnny, a cable news question not pertinent to any of the available links:
 
O'Reilly took a shot at Colbert tonight on the Factor, and I'm positive it must be because of something Colbert said about him on the CR, but I don't know what.
 
Might you know what was behind O'Reilly's swipe?
August 4, 2008, 9:13:01 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
I'm sorry to bring up this old chestnut again....The Paris Business Review was was used by BOR to back up his opinion...Not good as we found out.
HaggisFarmer | 08.04.08 - 8:44 pm | # 
 
Yea, yea, yea. I remember t-ghost instructing you to run over here and ask Johnny about that just the other day. You promptly did, like a good little newshound. Run along, "Patriot Actor." You're not fooling me.
August 4, 2008, 9:15:36 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Chromium | 08.04.08 - 9:10 pm |
 
I'm sorry to disagree with you again....But the "The Paris Business Review" claim was made on The Factor April 27th....Please see video at link below.
 
http://onegoodmove.org/1gm/1gmarchive/2005/02/bill_oreilly_li.html
August 4, 2008, 9:16:17 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
I may disagree with him 99% of the time but I wish him no harm.
HaggisFarmer | 08.04.08 - 8:01 pm | # 
 
Well, that changes everything.....
August 4, 2008, 9:21:45 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Chromium
Haggis,
 
My bad regarding the source for the debate on the Paris Business Review quote. Thanks for the source. 
 
How about a source for the "birthday".
August 4, 2008, 9:26:15 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Grammie
Johnny, I asked this question a few days ago and I think you may have missed it so here goes again.
 
Didn't you document some months back an incident on Hardball where Tweety spent multiple minutes discussing Obama while there was a pic of UBL displayed with the chyron identifying him as UBL or perhaps it was vice versa?, a long discussion of UBL with a pic of Obama.
 
I bring this up b/c this has happened so often on so many different shows on so many different channels that it is dishonest to pick out one instance of it to criticize as racist and xenophobic.
August 4, 2008, 9:32:36 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Chromium
Grammie,
 
See:
 
http://community.tvguide.com/blog-entry/TVGuide-News-Blog/Todays-News/Nbc-Reprimands-Employee/800033762
August 4, 2008, 9:36:52 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Chromium | 08.04.08 - 9:31 pm |
 
Happy to point you in the right direction...I notice J$ jumped at your comment.
 
Birthday/anniversary....We all know the story was about what H.W said "Do you see our man Ailes at all?" 
 
W.Bush never actually used birthday or anniversary: " President George W. Bush calling to congratulate you on 20 years of important and excellent broadcasting."
August 4, 2008, 9:38:56 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Is that a federal crime, patriot actor?
August 4, 2008, 9:41:57 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Grammie | 08.04.08 - 9:37 pm |
 
It's just sloppy work what ever channel does it....Simple as that.
 
NBC spokesman Jeremy Gaines said, "This mistake was inexcusable."
August 4, 2008, 9:43:33 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
> W.Bush never actually used birthday or anniversary:
 
Correct. Olbermann got that wrong. Or rather his blog source got that wrong, and Olbermann blindly repeated it. SOP.
 
> I notice J$ jumped at your comment.
 
Yeah, and what about it? He cited the wrong name in a debate on air rather than off air. Geez, this story is how many years old already? I'm seriously thinking of instituting a relevance rule, to keep people from bringing up the same old crap over and over.
August 4, 2008, 9:44:26 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
from bringing up the same old crap over and over.
johnny dollar | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 9:49 pm | # 
 
That's patriot actors MO. He brings up McCains first wife EVERY DAY on newshounds. That and the paris review crap. :lol:
August 4, 2008, 9:46:34 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Chromium
Haggis Farmer:
 
"What the story is about" I think it is the continuing KO lifting from unreliable sources without citation. Dan Rather and you may disagree.
 
Get real! No birthday. Congratulations for 20 years of broadcasting is an anniversary.
 
I knew BOR debated Canadians about boycotts, knew it his quote from the publication was spoken not from prepared text, but in the back and forth of debate, had not realized the debate was on the Factor.
August 4, 2008, 9:46:49 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Haggis, Roger Ailes worked for Bush The Elder.
 
If you're going to hold friendships that have come about by media personalities having worked for pols in the past, you're going to have to be suspicious of a great many who worked for Dem pols.
August 4, 2008, 9:48:40 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
spoken not from prepared text, but in the back and forth of debate, had not realized the debate was on the Factor.
Chromium | 08.04.08 - 9:51 pm |
 
My last comment on this as it's late here....So what your saying is BOR just plucked the Paris Business Review name out of thin air.
 
OS...I give up with you. :lol:
August 4, 2008, 9:52:42 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
:lol:
August 4, 2008, 9:53:55 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
OS...I give up with you. 
HaggisFarmer | 08.04.08 - 9:57 pm | # 
 
Good thinking.
August 4, 2008, 9:54:51 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Chromium
Haggis Farmer,
 
I do not know what BOR's actual source was. 
 
I do appreciate that he gave a source, even if it could not be found by others. Unlike you know who...
August 4, 2008, 10:00:48 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
I do like the fact that he tried to give one, 
Chromium | 08.04.08 - 10:01 pm |
 
Thanks for that...I do like to go to bed with a smile on my face.
August 4, 2008, 10:02:41 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
Chromium | 08.04.08 - 10:05 pm |
 
I'm curious how you managed to edit above post after posting it.
August 4, 2008, 10:07:45 PM EDT – Like – Reply


johnny dollar
It's not really your business, neither it is on topic, but when he posted it twice, I nuked the first one.
August 4, 2008, 10:12:33 PM EDT – Like – Reply


HaggisFarmer
johnny dollar | Homepage | 08.04.08 - 10:17 pm |
 
Thanks, now I understand.
 
"I do appreciate that he gave a source"
 
I have to say that did make me chuckle.
August 4, 2008, 10:15:51 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
[message deleted for rules violation: off topic]

Edited By Siteowner
August 4, 2008, 10:34:05 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
If I were to answer your question, Olby Sucks, I would be off topic, and I simply refuse to go off topic. Now, go look for omens and portends in a plate of hummus.
 
Mark | 08.04.08 - 4:15 pm | #
 
:lol: 
 
I love it when Goldberg makes excellent points regarding media bias. Example, old york times.
August 4, 2008, 11:28:16 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Have You Seen Fox's New Ad?
Reported by Melanie - Mon 9:40 PM
 
A clear sign they got zilch, notta! They couldn't even make anything up, today!
August 4, 2008, 11:34:29 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Pelosi's idiocy/fascism was in the "reality check" segment tonight which can mean only one thing. Tomorrow, she's fair game!
August 5, 2008, 12:06:30 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
Fascism is generally understood to be an autocratic system of government which exhalts nation and a race and which is founded upon a centralized, militaristic form of government. Perhaps, Speaker Pelosi is objectionable for a number of reason, but it is patently absurd to call her a fascist. She fits none of the criteria.
August 5, 2008, 7:51:16 AM EDT – Like – Reply


cee
Mark | 08.05.08 - 7:56 am |
 
Here we go again with, "That's my pejorative, not your's....nah, nah, nah!"
 
Also, you're going off topic.
August 5, 2008, 8:20:52 AM EDT – Like – Reply


right again
[message deleted for rules violation: name calling, personal attacks - welcome to Exile Island]

Edited By Siteowner
August 5, 2008, 8:54:02 AM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
nvh, actually, the media sat on the Lewinsky story for quite a while until it was put out by Drudge.
 
Cecelia | 08.04.08 - 8:15 pm | 
 
They did? Even Fox? Grand jury testimony is supposed to be secret,and was before Starr and Co leaked the blue dress to Drugde Report.What was to report on? 
 
Some people only see what they want to see.Indeed, it is all that has kept many men alive, if you catch my drift.
 
What are your sources for this unfolding scandal.I'm sure you'll keep us abreast of this unfolding story.
August 5, 2008, 9:30:41 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Grand jury testimony is supposed to be secret, huh... is THAT you, Scooter?...
 
What was there to report on, nvh? 
 
Oh, I don't know...maybe that Linda Tripp was claiming to have taped a WH intern, who in the midst of a sexual harassment suit against the president, told Tripp that she had been driven by that president's best friend, to an attorney's office so she could sign a false statement saying that she had not had intimate relations with the president.
 
Perhaps the fact that Janet Reno had okayed the expansion of the Starr investigation into this territory might have been news worthy too.
 
Just a guess...
August 5, 2008, 9:48:56 AM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
Cecelia | 08.05.08 - 9:53 am | 
 
And who,specifically,KNEW this at the time. 
 
"Linda Tripp was claiming to have taped a WH intern"
 
Claiming to WHO? Which media source? Do tell please.
August 5, 2008, 9:58:34 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
Good points, nvh. Many thanks. With Haggis Farmer and you, we have two (2) new potent weapons for getting at the truth. We are all in your debt.
August 5, 2008, 10:00:30 AM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
Thanx, Mark
 
I've been inspired by Solzhenitsyn's line," personal non-participation in lies.". Also adapting Bill O'Reilly's "confrontation" style, much easier than being polite.
August 5, 2008, 10:06:31 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Michael Isikoff knew. He had been tipped off to Linda Tripp by Kathleen Wiley, who referenced Tripp as a witness to Clinton's pawing incident.
 
Isikoff had talked to Tripp, knew about Starr, but the story was spiked by Newsweek.
August 5, 2008, 10:08:54 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
nvh, if might help if you knew what you were talking about too.
August 5, 2008, 10:11:05 AM EDT – Like – Reply


notveryhow
So Isikoff had an inkling,Newsweek cut the story on Jan 15,and on Jan 17, Drudge ran with it,and you conflate this into"the media sat on the Lewinsky story for quite a while until it was put out by Drudge." 
 
I guess it depends on what your definition of "the media" and "quite a while" is. 
 
Limited by the need to confirm the story, the story did not really take off for a day or two. Then feeding frenzy began, and the rest is an embarassment.
 
I have higher expectations of my media.Do you think that the media should run with every story they hear. Or do you think they should stick by the 2 source rule common in media outlets. Without the 2 source rules, you get embarrassing little gaffes like the "Obama Madrassa" story,or the currently disscussed KFC. I expect more.
August 5, 2008, 11:07:26 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
So now you've moved your argument to saying that the media SHOULD have spiked the story.
 
Actually, nvh, the media routinely goes with stories where they have NO name other than "informed sources" or WH insiders". 
 
Isikoff had at least two named informed sources, one a WH insider.
August 5, 2008, 11:12:22 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
I do have to take exception with your characterization of madrassa story as a gaffe. I tend to think it was malicious and intentional, and, as well all know, it was H-U-U-U-U-G-G-E.
August 5, 2008, 11:37:13 AM EDT – Like – Reply


sharm
Once it became clear that you know what you are talking about, Cecelia, it's Obama, it's KFC. 
 
Oh well, As was said to the outlaw Josie Wales, "a man's gotta make a livin..."
August 5, 2008, 12:00:36 PM EDT – Like – Reply


olby sucks
Bill O'Reilly: "...wherever that truth falls."
 
Unless of course....it happens to be in the Paris Business Review.
Patriot Actor | 08.05.08 - 1:04 am | # 
 
I'm sorry to disagree with you again....But the "The Paris Business Review" claim was made on The Factor April 27th....
HaggisFarmer | 08.04.08 - 9:21 pm | # 
 
Like I was saying yesterday.....
August 5, 2008, 12:22:25 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Sharm,
 
I've often wondered what the going rate for "it" is...
August 5, 2008, 3:28:15 PM EDT – Like – Reply