1/6/09 1:05 PM

Wednesday Links & Open Thread

Latest cable news links [updated through the day]:

MSNBC anchor for Bush address is not David Gregory: it's Rachel Maddow!
Analysis: "so blatant it's embarrassing".

McCain's Letterman replacement: Keith Olbermann!

Tuesday's numbers.

Campbell Brown: hero or poseur?

Fox was first.

Fawningest Maddow profile ever.

Fired Fox "Baby Mama" producer hired...by CNBC!

New cyber attack on O'Reilly planned. Are arrests imminent?

Chat with Alexis Glick.

Video: Conan knocks MSNBC.

CNNer joins Obama team.

Cable commentary is crap?

Use our valuable bandwidth to post your comments on any and all cable news topics in today's open thread. Standard rules apply.




johnny dollar
The experiment is over and we are back to commenting under our standard rules. Please feel free to express your opinion of our experimental no-rules thread. This does not mean reviving the topics therein, but rather a discussion on whether you like that format or prefer the more structured discussions that are the norm.
September 24, 2008, 1:41:34 AM EDT – Like – Reply


vstol
J$,
 
Did you enjoy your evening out?
September 24, 2008, 1:55:17 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Vince P
Can't you create an IQ Test and ban those who fall into the range that typifies Leftists?
September 24, 2008, 2:06:01 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Mike C.
I love moderation and hope that we don't have to relive the Tuesday experiment again for a very long time.
September 24, 2008, 2:23:56 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
Moderation sucks.
 
What we had here yesterday was the very reason I was first drawn to J$P years ago. It reminded me of what's been taken away from this site for the worse. Too bad it was a 15-hour day for me and I missed most of it.
 
Freedom is good. Moderation SUCKS.
September 24, 2008, 7:06:17 AM EDT – Like – Reply


CaribouBarbie
Im sure Johnny they did not like it but I sure did, getting them all rilled up, make my day.
September 24, 2008, 7:47:36 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Steve L
“See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"-- CNBC’s new slogan
The Squawk Box mutual admiration society. They all are so impressed with the Democrat leaders in congress. As Becky Quick said this morning “I am so impressed with Barney Frank” Similar drooling by the whole bunch over Sen. Schumer. My son’s high school newspaper would have done a harder hitting interview.
I have changed the channel!
September 24, 2008, 8:15:44 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Interloper
As I said yesterday, Johnny, I am definitely in favor of the more structured comments rules. I gave up reading yesterday because I did not want to wade through all of the trash to get to the meaningful stuff. One Man's Opinion.
September 24, 2008, 8:58:31 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Well, there's nothing profound in saying that well-intended ADULTS bahave without moderation exactly as they do WITH moderation.
 
The same can't be said for ill-intended grown-ups, teenagers, and the eternally adolescent.
 
Unfortunately, you have a slew of those people, Johnny, who have FNC and by extention- you, in their cross hairs. That makes moderating necessary.
 
I wish that weren't the case, but that's my impression.
September 24, 2008, 9:05:36 AM EDT – Like – Reply


lyons
Moderation should be the rule here.
If I want to read vile and hateful
words there are other sites to visit.
Check out Lucianne to read healthy discourse. No name calling or angry
responses are allowed.
And, of course, Newsbustes is the best.
Keep this site sane, J$, as it has always been.
September 24, 2008, 9:40:34 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Im sure Johnny they did not like it but I sure did, getting them all rilled up, make my day.
CaribouBarbie | 09.24.08 - 7:52 am | #  
 
Do your own experiment, CaribouBarbie.
 
Hire a neighborhood gang to come to where you live and deface the exterior of your parent's house with puerile and hostile graffiti.
 
Next, watch and see if your parents get "riled up".  
 
Then, consider that any satisfaction from their getting so, is just confirmation of a junior high mentality in the first place.
September 24, 2008, 9:41:04 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Freedom is good. Moderation SUCKS.
Fox Fan | 09.24.08 - 7:11 am | #  
 
I think freedom will turn into chaos (boy, have we seen that before...) and the site will lose it's cable news focus as well.
 
Maybe a way to mediate the middle ground between freedom and chaos would be registering software like that at OW. Perhaps with more initial leeway, where folks can quickly register on their own, and later be booted if their behavior requires it.
September 24, 2008, 9:46:11 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Olby Sucks
The moderation could be avoided by banning the ones who don't respect the rules. I think you should be banned for lying, too. CB would have been gone in less than 1 minute! Problem solved.....
 
On another note. Kuds to Greta for asking Clinton the "david duke/rev wright" question. He was squirming and shifting all over that room!
September 24, 2008, 10:29:55 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Philly
Almost all CNN reporters are actively are shilling on behalf of Barry whether they admit it or not. Raman just happens to be paid by the Obama campaign. If Campbell Brown isn't being paid, she should be.
September 24, 2008, 11:24:55 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
In the story about hacking Bill O'Reilly's site, you can well see the mentality of the folks I'm talking about.
 
The people who hacked the site are incensed over Bill O'Reilly's freedom to speak his mind and so are the Wikileaks folks.  
 
That they then go about proving all O'Reilly's statements to be correct is a concept too subtle for them to grasp, as is the freedom squelching nature of their own desires.
 
We're not talking about people who truly want a "vibrant exchange of ideas". We're talking about people who wish to commandeer the conversation and the emotions of those conversing, with all sort of ego inflating shenanigans-- mockery, multiple identities, sock puppets, straw man sock puppets, name-jackings, explicit and implicit threats, posts with shocking language and content, etc...
 
(BTW-- shame on you if you go to the News Hounds site and prove them right about you by your childish attitude and conduct.)
 
There are some extremely enjoyable blog comment boards (I highly recommend the one at Justoneminute.com), that allow full discussion, but they are all moderated.
 
I think moderating and gate-keeping is indispensable. That's the sort of world we and Bill O'Reilly now live in.
September 24, 2008, 11:38:21 AM EDT – Like – Reply


vstol
Freedom is better than good.  
 
No other country on the planet offers its citizens greater freedom than the USA. In order to gurantee freedom to its citizens, the Republic establishes laws to protect people from those who would limit or take away our freedoms. There is accountability. There are consequences for behavior. That is the keystone of freedom.
 
The internet is not a democracy. There is no accountability. The consequences for behavior are limited and at the sole discretion of the founder of each site.
 
However, anarchy can be enlightening. It is similiar to the game of golf. When you are your own referee, when following rules of ettiquette, the rules of the game and keeping score are left to the player, character is revealed, lack of character is exposed.
 
In golf, the rules were established in order to make the game fair for all competitors, in other words, a protection of the rights of all. Those who violate the rules are disqualified. Habitual violaters are banned from the game.
 
Civility, decency, honesty and fairness are worthy goals in any endeavor. They are worthy of promotion and protection.  
 
How one goes about dealing with uncivility, indecency, dishonesty or unfairness is a personal decision. Banning it, ignoring it or exposing it all have their own value.
September 24, 2008, 11:58:53 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
Thanks for the update on Raman. An intelligent, great guy. A loss for CNN and it's viewers, but I suspect a tremendous asset to Senator Obama and his campaign.
 
The cable news crap "article" is also very good. Pretty much my sentiment.
 
Thanks once again for the moderation experiment. Part of me agrees with FF. On a theoretical level, he is absolutely right.
 
And, I am not as willing as Cecelia to impose any limits on speech.
 
Yet, when I see the misappropriation of cyberspace by but a couple of the least common denominator sorts, you realize that free speech is treated cheaply and squandered lavishly.
 
So, I am leaning toward moderation, but I hope it is a more "moderated moderation".
September 24, 2008, 12:29:10 PM EDT – Like – Reply


DeeKay
OMG, yesterday was nasty. Just IMO.
 
Sure there's the whole freedom to speak one's mind thing...BUT then there's those who will come here just to spew filth, hateful lies, and attacks on others who (gasp!) dare to differ from their point of view. If I wanted to read that crapola (and I do NOT), I'd go someplace else.
 
IMO at least SOME rules (to weed out those who would post as mentioned above) are OK by me. But, like I said, that's just my opinion.
 
Thanks for asking our opinion, johnny. Most places wouldn't bother to!
September 24, 2008, 12:45:15 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mike C.
It was primarily one guy that came just to do all that stuff, DeeKay. He goes to my blog, too. He likes to torment me. It makes him feel good.
September 24, 2008, 1:30:42 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
And, I am not as willing as Cecelia to impose any limits on speech.
 
Yet, when I see the misappropriation of cyberspace by but a couple of the least common denominator sorts, you realize that free speech is treated cheaply and squandered lavishly.
 
So, I am leaning toward moderation, but I hope it is a more "moderated moderation".
Mark | 09.24.08 - 12:34 pm | #  
 
Well, not that I'm not used to the sorts of illogical rambling equivocations you weave in order to portray someone else as being extreme and yourself as modulated.... but I will still remind you that I voiced the idea of having a system where everyone could instantly register and comment and would only be scrutinized and restricted AFTER their behavior degenerated.
 
Mind telling me how THIS equates to an easy "willingness" on my part to limit free speech, any more than your leaning towards "moderate moderating" would?
September 24, 2008, 1:49:51 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
Vstol, you make a persuasive argument in your 12:07. The internet is not a democracy with laws and consequences. It isn't golf though either. Libertarian is not anarchist, it's all the freedom while maintaining structure. Mark seems most spot on here- moderated moderation might be key.
 
Allow me to expand on my take that moderation SUCKS- it's the preventative moderation that bugs me. Reactionary moderation is OK in my book.
September 24, 2008, 2:16:31 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Vince
Wow.. that Bill Clinton interview was priceless. I never saw him at a loss of words before
September 24, 2008, 3:04:15 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mike C.
I think Campbell Brown is trying to out-Olbermann Olbermann, if you know what I mean.
September 24, 2008, 3:54:00 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mike C.
And isn't Campbell married to Dan Senor? If so, I guess it's a Carville-Matalin-type marriage and she's the Carville.
September 24, 2008, 3:56:48 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Mark
I'm not opposed to your plan, Cecelia. It may well have merit. My reference to your willingness to control speech simply reflects my general belief that you are not a great champion of civil or Constitutional rights. I think that a fair commentary. Based on your "writings," I have never known you to hold the Bill of Rights in any particularly high, inviolate regard. You always seem to take a situational approach. You're not alone in that regard, and the Constitution scares many Americans. In fact, I doubt the Bill of Rights could even be ratified in America, today. My unwaivering support for the basic protections of our Constitution may well be the aberration. However, it is as much a part of me as my right hand. No slight intended nor made.
September 24, 2008, 4:07:57 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
Well, Mark in this instance you had my explicit minutes-old writing before you, where I mention a plan that IS reactive rather than pre-emptive.
 
But thank you very much for extrapolating a blog board management issue into some broad question on Constitutional rights in order to smear me-- using only a vague reference to some past "writings" of mine.  
 
I'll add THAT kindness to your other kindnesses of being the reason OW was closed for several months because of YOUR own hideous abuse of your freedom to speak on a private blog.  
 
THAT freedom was given to you for several years by the blog owner, Bob Cox, whom you have since slandered as being an authoritarian dictator because he instituted measures that have kept you from writing posts accusing other posters of copulating with animals and as being drunken slovens.  
 
Thank you very much for being the person you are, Mark. You've certainly functioned as Exhibit A for every internet sociopath there is, who doesn't give one fig about anything so much as having his own way.
September 24, 2008, 5:36:07 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Olby Sucks
Yet, when I see the misappropriation of cyberspace by but a couple of the least common denominator sorts, you realize that free speech is treated cheaply and squandered lavishly.
 
by mark
 
Have you ever made that claim on newshounds? Thought so.
September 24, 2008, 7:08:05 PM EDT – Like – Reply


spearule
i am anxious to see how maddow will handle the opportunity to cover the presidensts address. im betting she feigns even-handedness. if she pulls it off, her stock rises. if she goes partisan with it, she will make a huge mistake. tonight is her chance to seperate from olbermann. lets see.
September 24, 2008, 9:05:39 PM EDT – Like – Reply


vstol
However, anarchy can be enlightening. It is similiar to the game of golf. When you are your own referee, when following rules of ettiquette, the rules of the game and keeping score are left to the player, character is revealed, lack of character is exposed.-Me
-------
The internet is not a democracy with laws and consequences. It isn't golf though either. Libertarian is not anarchist, it's all the freedom while maintaining structure.-Fox Fan
 
Never said the internet was like golf. Said "anarchy is similiar to the game of golf," in that it reveals character and exposes a lack of character.  
 
Yesterdays open thread was without government, resulting in lawless confusion and general disorder; i.e., the definition of 'anarchy.' With no risks of any consequences, whether one followed common rules of fairness and honesty was a personal choice, revealing character or a lack of same.
 
I'm at a total loss where the connection to 'libertarian' comes from.
 
It appears, both you and Mark favor the moderation policy that has been in effect ever since I visited J$P.
September 24, 2008, 9:34:11 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
I'm at a total loss where the connection to 'libertarian' comes from.
 
vstol | Homepage | 09.24.08 - 9:39 pm | #  
 
I think it's some sort of equating of the Constitutional right we have to free expression, with some sort of nonexistent "right" to type something on someone else's blog board.
 
I'm very familiar with libertarians and know for a fact that they also cherish the "right" to throw anyone they wish out of their living room.
September 25, 2008, 12:30:09 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Grammie
Although I didn't participate in real time I am, as ever, happy to put my two cents in re The Experiment.
 
You certainly garnered a lot more comments than usual. Unfortunately, too many by far were by one or two deadly dull trolls that were not worth reading much less responding to. Add that on top of Mark's chronic not so subtle personal attacks and supercillious preening and you have a recipe for disaster.
 
I don't like it when you turn the moderation on, its too stringent, any better than I did your experiment. As long as there are so many creeps out there who delight in being crass, rude, vile and disruptive totally open is not an option, IMO.  
 
That's why I like Cecelia's idea. I hope you think about it.
September 25, 2008, 5:13:23 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
"I'm at a total loss where the connection to 'libertarian' comes from."
 
I don't like censorship. Sue me!
 
"It appears, both you and Mark favor the moderation policy that has been in effect ever since I visited J$P."
 
Which one is that? I am in favor of the fast comment posting policy, where comments may be deleted (even en masse) AFTER they have been posted. I am in favor of a policy where they show up right away instead of after a few minutes or, as is often the case, after an hour or more *cough*last night*cough*.
 
"I think it's some sort of equating of the Constitutional right we have to free expression, with some sort of nonexistent "right" to type something on someone else's blog board."
 
Please see above, CC. It's about killing the comment traffic. BTW, it is anyone's "right" to type on a public comment board. That's the reason johnny chose to utilize the service of a multimillion $ server farm dedicated to hosting comments. Whether he allows the comments is up to him. Don't pretend that it isn't anyone's right to type on a public, anonymous comment section.
September 25, 2008, 9:46:54 AM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
FF,
 
I may be mistaken...but I think I'm detecting some defensiveness on your part which puzzles me.  
 
We're all just batting around ideas here. No one is saying that you shouldn't treasure freedom of expression.
 
However, I don't have to pretend that "it isn't anyone's right to type on a public, anonymous comment section", it truly isn't a "right". Not in the Constitutional sense or even in an informal one.  
 
With the internet I haven't heard that there is even any concept of the media belonging innately to the public ...as with the concept of "public airwaves", we have in tv and radio.
 
Johnny can tell us whether rules against discrimination based upon race, gender, ethnicity apply, but I'd wager there is no concept that strict rules on content are not the prerogative of the host.
 
Any "right" you have to post on a board lies merely in the standing accorded to you by the implied invitation of the host. THAT can be reconsidered in an instant.
 
That's true at a dinner party and at News Hounds.
September 25, 2008, 12:16:40 PM EDT – Like – Reply


vstol
I don't like censorship. Sue me! Fox Fan | 09.25.08 - 9:51 am  
 
Holy putdown, Batman!
 
That's your response. That's your whole response? That's nothing but your response?
 
The statement, "I don't like censorship" in and of itself, is an act of censorship.
 
What happened to "The internet is not a democracy with laws and consequences. It isn't golf though either. Libertarian is not anarchist (sic), it's all the freedom while maintaining structure."-Fox Fan
 
"Never said the internet was like golf. Said "anarchy is similiar to the game of golf," in that it reveals character and exposes a lack of character."- Me  
 
And I still don't get the connection of my original post to libertarianism, considering I never said the internet was like golf or that anarchy and libertarianism were the same. I speak a few foreign languages but I'm certain my posts were in English.
September 25, 2008, 12:26:54 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Fox Fan
Cecelia and vstol, I'm sorry if you don't agree with my preference for the original moderation methodology. You don't have to jump all over me for it. I liked it because it was much faster, more free, and more entertaining. Is that really so offensive to you both?
September 25, 2008, 5:43:25 PM EDT – Like – Reply


Cecelia
FF,
 
As I stated earlier, I'm at a loss as to why you feel some offense in the bull session we've had on blog management issues.
 
(I had a personal argument with Mark about some statements he made towards me during discussion of this matter, but that had nothing to do with you.)
 
I do NOT-- "not agree" ---with your preference for the original moderating methodology. I was just discussing another possible solution. That doesn't imply that I'm dissing other views.
 
I'm not sure why you'd perceive that I've "jumped all over you" by offering up another idea and explaining why I think it's a good one.
 
Again, I find that puzzling and regrettable.
September 25, 2008, 6:24:14 PM EDT – Like – Reply