Wednesday Links & Open Threa
Latest cable news links [updated through the day]:
Olbermann: "for politics, he's done".
Tuesday's numbers.
Soledad O'Brien in Dayton.
What did Jeffrey Immelt know?
Maddow minute-by-minute.
The worst two hours on cable news?
But what do the stars say?
MSNBC's meltdown: what really happened. (MS)NBCers choose sides. Are they now missing moxie?
Cablers to carry 9/11 forum.
Video: Bill Hemmer answers Obama.
Hotline quotes.
CNN doesn't "get" religion?
Profiles: Erin Burnett, Shibani Joshi (via TV Newser).
Use our valuable bandwidth to post your comments on any and all cable news topics in today's open thread. Standard rules apply. fox news cable news
cee
The FORBES article was right on target in the summation of Olbermann:
"As [Olbermann's] hero Murrow said of Joe McCarthy, "he didn't create this situation ... he merely exploited it--and rather successfully."
So true. Observing Olbermann these last few years has shown me that his flaw, like so many, is he actually started believing his exploitation (which was originally only for his own self promotion), is actually doing "good" for the society at large. The core of where his mission is coming from is still poisoned so nothing but poison can result.
Olbermann's inability to rise to the professional level of informative/detached broadcaster during the conventions, and his inability to rise to the professional level of objective, probing journalist during his latest infomercial with Obama are illustrative of the poison.
September 10, 2008, 8:34:59 AM EDT – Like – Reply
Mark
As for Olbermann:
1. Without anchor responsibilities we should have known Olbermann would be freed up to comment without constraint. It was completely predictable. He is now assuming the moderate, progressive, liberal Hannity role, and is entitled to much credit for objectivity and veracity as we ascribe to Hannity, i.e. none. What's the big surprise.
2. As a muckracker, Olbermann has, in fact help uncover deeply suppressed lies and half-truths. That serves a societal interest even if muckrakers, in general, and Olbermann, in particular are not widely liked or respected. Olbermann as a muckraker has a flaw, however. He barely uncovers the lies and the half-truths, and once uncovered, he leaves for others to dissect. Unfortunately, virtually no one in cable news is willing to work hard enough to do this.
As for Maddow:
The feminizing crap needs to be dropped. We have seen in our society, in general, and on this site people throw out gender labels when it is convenient to do so. There is little value in that. And, it gets tiresome, very quickly.
The show itself is disappointing. It's new. It needs some time, but the start is not auspicious.
September 10, 2008, 10:42:41 AM EDT – Like – Reply
Olby Sucks
As for Olbermann:
1. Without anchor responsibilities we should have known Olbermann would be freed up to comment without constraint.
by mark
He was already doing that. Why do you think he was yanked? He's out of control no matter which "chair" he plops his fat ass in!
September 10, 2008, 11:52:53 AM EDT – Like – Reply
Olby Sucks
Olbermann has, in fact help uncover deeply suppressed lies and half-truths.
by mark
Examples, please.
September 10, 2008, 11:53:50 AM EDT – Like – Reply
johnny dollar
Well, on Monday night he told three lies in three minutes. I guess that's "uncovering" them, as they were in the teleprompter until he put them on air.
September 10, 2008, 11:55:34 AM EDT – Like – Reply
Mark
Jeff,
I will not fall into your little trap. You know the lies and half-truths. Johnny will deem them political, and they will not reflect well on your mutual party or upon FNC. They will not sustain the "moderation".
---
Johnny:
The lies would be?
September 10, 2008, 12:01:51 PM EDT – Like – Reply
vstol
The feminizing crap needs to be dropped. We have seen in our society, in general, and on this site people throw out gender labels when it is convenient to do so. There is little value in that. And, it gets tiresome, very quickly. Mark | 09.10.08 - 10:47 am | #
Let's take a short walk down Memory Lane and see if one practices what they preach:
And, really, Cecelia, let's not throw Gretchen into this wash. It wouldn't come out at all well.
What an interesting, apocryphal, functional definition of "Pharisee". Then, to add Al Gore at the end. Well, I suppose we all know how well that argument went to those who advanced it. But, not to mind, Sharon. I am sure Rachel was not counting you in her fan base, anyway. And, on that note, I end my contribution to this weary line of discussion.
You are being something of a Pharisee here, Sharon.
I always thought the plan was that Palin would re-do her convention speech in Wisconsin, then scoot off to Alaska for foreign policy briefings with Liebermann.
Once the leak question is raised, Cecelia, spin to your heart's content.
So, I am to take it, Sharon, to be impermissible to commend someone with whom I often disagree but who has done something I find commendable? Please excuse my obvious lack of understanding of civility and civil discourse, but the rules seem to have changed, and I must be confused.
The Chuck-Michael-Peggy open mic is amazing. Michael has been somewhat reserved about the pick, as it is, but Peggy has been gushing, fawning, right up to the post.
What you say, Cecelia, once one cuts through some gratuitous whining, may have some merit.
And, I expect you (Cecelia) are being harsh.
September 10, 2008, 12:26:36 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Olby Sucks
Jeff,
I will not fall into your little trap. You know the lies and half-truths.
by mark
If I knew I wouldn't have asked. You said he uncovered lies and half truths, let's here them. Stop back pedaling. You do it on every single thread. Will this go down as yet another comment you can't back?
September 10, 2008, 12:26:46 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Ashley
Examples, please.
Olby Sucks | 09.10.08 - 11:58 am | #
Jeff,
I will not fall into your little trap. You know the lies and half-truths.
Mark | 09.10.08 - 12:06 pm | #
Let me see if I have this straight:
Asking someone for examples to back up their claim is "trap"?
September 10, 2008, 12:31:38 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Mark
Yes, Ashley. As with most cable news at the moment, Olbermann deals almost exclusively with political matters. "Politik" ist Hier verboten. I don't make that rule. If I merely touch a political question, I will be "moderated" into meaninglessness. You know that very well, and even Jeff has some crude understanding of that fact. My aunt lived most of her adult life in Dresden, in the heart of the former East Germany. It was her fervent belief that censorship was best attacked by those who worked around it, not by those who fought it head on, that the light shone brighter still with darkness all around it. Johnny's "moderation" is not East German censorship, by any means, but the general principle holds. I am not going to commence an argument merely to have it lose its meaning and force by being stripped bare in the guise of editorial discretion. It's the system we have here, and we all learn to cope. If my coping mechanism doesn't meet with your approval, I am truly sorry.
Now, Jeff, the time is upon us for your tired and trite diversion line.
September 10, 2008, 1:02:35 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Ashley
Mark - wow.
"I will be "moderated" into meaninglessness. You know that very well,"
No Mark, you are wrong. I don't know that very well. You made a claim about lies and half-truths related to cable news. You did not provide examples. OS asked you for examples. J$ allowed OS question to post, I believe he would allow your response, which would be related to cable news, to post.
You then go on to talk about east german censorship then claim that it does not relate to J$P. I am skeptical.
At this point, I would understand J$ not allowing this one to post because it's starting to veer off topic, but I would like to know examples of these "lies and half-truths" you claim exist.
September 10, 2008, 1:28:10 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Mark
I'm not sure why any Republican would want this repeated, but here is the list Ahsley and Jeff so crave, some of stories Olbermann aired, ahead of the general cable news curve:
Date decision to go to invade Iraq made.
WMDs.
Yellow Cake.
Walter Reed Medical Center conditions.
Downing Street Memorandum.
DOJ hiring criteria.
DOJ firings.
Involvement of Cheneys office in Plame matter.
Decision to go to war based upon erroneous CIA reports.
Contents of IAEA Report on Iraqi nuclear weapon progress.
Contents of IAEA Report on Iranian nuclear weapon progress.
Progress on North Korean nuclear talks.
Ties between Iraq and AlQaeda.
Chalibi! Chalibi! Chalibi!
US to be welcomed as liberators.
Iraqi oil to pay for invasion and occupation.
Spontaneity of the Saddaam statue tear-down.
Abu Ghraib! Abu Ghraib! Abu Gharib!
US torture.
Deaths of Mosul protestors at hands of US military.
Deaths of Fallujah civilians at hands of US military.
Pat Tillman.
Jessica Lynch.
The Italian letter.
US Telecom spying.
State of the US economy.
FEMA preparedness for Katrina.
Failure to mobilize schoolbuses.
September 10, 2008, 2:10:21 PM EDT – Like – Reply
johnny dollar
A mighty impressive list from someone who claimed he had no use for Olbermann. Now that you've outed yourself, we can leave this discussion of your list of "lies" exposed by Olbermann, and with it any list of the lies told by Olbermann in the course of all of the above.
So off politics and back to cable news, now with an enhanced understanding of exactly where people here are really coming from, regardless of what they may have claimed for months.
September 10, 2008, 2:16:40 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Mark
Sometimes, Johnny, you reach the most self-serving, absurd conclusions, completely devoid of reason or rationality. Just how hard do you think it is to come up with such a list? Is the only way to get this information to watch Olbermann and make lists? Does everything have to be a great conspiracy? Does everyone who has a difference of opinion with you lie, Johnny? You may be the King of the Links, Johnny, but many of us are of the Peerage. We, as a nation, will always Olbermann something for:
(1) Taking the blinders off us.
(2) Challenging the corporate media members to get off its fat duffs and do some work, a challenge with mixed results, to be sure.
(3) Putting to rest the notion that there is anything approaching fair and balanced news at FNC.
The odd thing is, he did all of this without breaking into a sweat. Anyone could have done this. Anyone could have done this far better. Now that he has done this, why won't he go away?
Nothing contradictory here at all. It's all like a Western. The whores always have hearts of gold, the good guys are compromised figures and the bad guys have soft spots. Sort of, When Bad Guys Do Good Things.
Now that I have been outed, indeed. Geez! It is you who has been outed. Disagree with Johnny, and you're a liar, even if you're right!
September 10, 2008, 2:35:52 PM EDT – Like – Reply
sharm
Everyone has had comments deleted entirely or in part here. Sometimes a comment of mine never even makes it to the board, and a few times, were in response to one of your comments, Mark, that was left to stand unchallenged.
Although stricter moderation causes a loss of spontaneity, it certainly does make it more challenging and less amusing for those who play the name game.
September 10, 2008, 2:36:49 PM EDT – Like – Reply
cee
Mark | 09.10.08 - 2:15 pm |
I was not aware that Keith Olbermann did the actual work in investigating these 'stories.'
Oh, and the "muckraking" label...wow...I see all sorts of great results of Olbermann's muckraking (I would rather call it exploitation of radical leftist paranoia), in the courts, in the Congress and history books. How's that 'Resign' spittled at President Bush comming along? Impeachment articles pass yet?
Mmm...sitting in a cushy studio with mean stares into the camera is now defined as "muckraking." I thought previous do-gooders like E.R. Murrow actually went out and about to all sorts of dangerous places to actually gather evidence, talk to eyewitnesses and confirm facts....Has Olbermann done that?
Oh, that's right...He could not even handle a bunch of RNC delegates whose most violent activity would be finishing off the plate of chicken wings at the local Fuddruckers....
Dipped in Miracle Whip of course.
September 10, 2008, 2:53:09 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Olby Sucks
Wow! All of that from someone who "rarely watches" olbermann. :lol:
September 10, 2008, 3:03:21 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Mark
Your point about the name game is very good, Sharon.
I see the need for moderation. To be sure, it breaks up flow, and it is like any form of editorial discretion. It reflects personal biases. How could it not? And, it is sometimes unintentionally unfair.
The biggest divide here, if you will, are those who are drawn to the gossipy side of cable news and those drawn to the more serious side. It tends to be well balanced. I'm just not an "US" kind of guy.
I have to hand it to Johnny. I think he (almost) always tries to be scrupulously fair and generally succeeds. My big hang-up is I just don't see how to avoid politics when the topic is cable news in the midst of an election year. Although he sometimes seems a bit draconian and capricious, I'm sure Johnny struggles with that as well. And, he'll work it out, very satisfactorily. This remains a very good website, with some informed opinions from a wide variety of sources (and, for levity, some notable exceptions). It will stay that way.
An an aside: You wonder what will happen with cable news after the election is over. I think the networks have become addicted to the easy topics, easy money (in the guise of larger audiences).
September 10, 2008, 3:26:56 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Mark
All of that from someone who "rarely watches" olbermann.
Olby Sucks | 09.10.08 - 3:08 pm | #
---
Yes, we noticed the generic corn chip particles spewed on your screen.
September 10, 2008, 3:59:32 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Cecelia
http://www.netrootsmass.net/Hugh/Bush_list.html
Here is just one internet site that features Mark's list.
The list contains many an interesting use of the term "lie" when one considers Mark's concern for that term yesterday...
While I've not encountered a site yet which credits Olbermann as being the "light" who exposed this "darkness", it's probably because these sites were preaching to the choir, rather being the urbane insouciant sophisticate, wittily playing fly in the right wing ointment, as Mark fancies himself here.
Goodness knows, if you Ailes groupies can't appreciate the righteousness of his service, or his creative and smart performances, the least you hicks could do is to politely pretend that you're fooled.
September 10, 2008, 4:30:45 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Tom
Heads up, Keefy's special comment about the RNC's video.
BTW, I searched MSNBC's archives and couldn't find KO's comments about the DNC's video on Wed. night of their convention showing dead American soldiers in Iraq.
September 10, 2008, 4:35:01 PM EDT – Like – Reply
johnny dollar
Wow, C, that's an amazing correlation between that list and the list of "lies" exposed by Olbermann posted by our very own Mark. Though he does get a point or two for changing the order of sequence around a bit.
September 10, 2008, 5:14:26 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Cecelia
Johnny,
I just want you to know that even though you are a whore-with-a-heart-of-gold-pawn-of-evil-forces, who ignorantly fights against the more complex and nuanced heroes with feet of clay..... I appreciate you, dude!...
September 10, 2008, 5:20:57 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Mike C.
And wait till you hear the OlbyRobot dramatic reading of the Special Comment.
September 10, 2008, 5:53:49 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Cecelia
"Wow, C, that's an amazing correlation between that list and the list of "lies" exposed by Olbermann posted by our very own Mark."
Don't thank me, Johnny.... What's more important is the fact that in society there will always be phenomenon that must be Olbermanned, as Mark says.
There will always be dark forces that must be exposed by,....say.... providing an unfiltered conduit from the internet to a televised "news" show that then relays this information without rebuttal, defense, or contradictory analysis AND that then...and most importantly.... echos the innately democratic voice of the people by relaying the collective consciousness in hollering "Resign!", "Liar!", and "Shut the hell up!"
True, ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, FNC, and other programming on MSNBC, have reported, discussed, analyzed, and debated the information on Mark's list, but they are corporately compromised and given to concerns, boundaries and logic that reflect that dynamic.
No, as tortured and flawed a psyche as is his, it takes an Olbermann...perhaps a VILLAGE of Olbermanns (let's hope Rachel Maddow lives up to her calling) unquestioningly televising blue blog fodder (and trolling rightest blog sites on the internet).
Good night and good luck... (chumps...)
September 10, 2008, 6:31:08 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Mark
Of course, my point was that Olbermann brought this information, these facts to cable news, uniquely, first (while FNC was working as hard as possible to help hide the facts and to feebly attempt to refute them when they couldn't be hidden anymore and CNN was talking about the dangers of illegal immigrants and precious little else). But, I am with you. I find it very suspicious that facts, FACTS, might appear in more than one source. Facts are usually unique to one person and are seldom shared or repeated. They are soon lost. The FACT that these FACTS appear in more than one source makes me very suspicious, indeed. Must be some sort of conspiracy. Well, I'm into FNC territory now.
Geez, what a trio. Did you meet at the alchemist's shop?
September 10, 2008, 7:04:15 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Guest
99.9% of the time Edward R. posts his OPINIONS as facts Mark, sorry but take that line of thinking back to Media Matters or The Daily Kos, where he pulls his "facts" and regurgitates them on MESSNBC.
September 10, 2008, 7:27:49 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Cecelia
You're the one erroneously suggesting that that there was little airing of these "FACTS" (capitalized in order to suggest they ARE written in stone and undebatable...) in other venues.
Who's the conspiracy theorist there?
You think by suggesting that the media failed in this regard out of a concern for profits means you're arguing something less conspiratorial?
I'm saying that these issues were being widely discussed in all venues, the real difference between that and Olbermann's method, being that on his show they were passed on UNQUESTIONINGLY.
Oh, you've made clear that despite many past statements to the contrary, that you think this was the most logical (considering they are "FACTS") and even the most culturally historic method.
I think you've at last exposed yourself down to dropping the final fig leaf, Mark.
And what a splendid specimen of rationality (and honesty) ---you aren't.
September 10, 2008, 7:59:26 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Olby Sucks
Of course, my point was that Olbermann brought this information, these facts to cable news, uniquely, first
by mark
:lol:
September 10, 2008, 8:12:39 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Mark
I don't think it matters how he "posts" them. The list I posted is factual, and it is not even a comprehensive list. I wish we had a more effective messenger, but in the dismal, amateurish world of cable news, we take what we get.
September 10, 2008, 8:30:53 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Cecelia
sorry but take that line of thinking back to Media Matters or The Daily Kos, where he pulls his "facts" and regurgitates them on MESSNBC.
Anonymous | 09.10.08 - 7:32 pm |
Or more to the point, take it back to News Hounds.
The only real point of contention that Mark has with THAT site is that some ... 'internet aristocrat'...from the Right... could more accurately insult THEM as being connoisseurs of Miracle Whip...
September 10, 2008, 8:31:38 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Cecelia
I wish we had a more effective messenger, but in the dismal, amateurish world of cable news, we take what we get.
Mark | 09.10.08 - 8:35 pm | #
Well, onward Leftist Soldiers... Nobody (sans Keith...) Knows The Trouble You've Seen...
September 10, 2008, 8:34:06 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Cecelia
Olbermann has, in fact help uncover deeply suppressed lies and half-truths.
by mark
Examples, please.
Olby Sucks | 09.10.08 - 11:58 am | #
Johnny, I respectfully nominate OS for Commenter of the Day for this remark.
in a moment of either divine retribution or poetic justice (depending on your predilections...) OS is responsible for the denudement of our man of a thousand aliases.
September 10, 2008, 8:51:08 PM EDT – Like – Reply
johnny dollar
I don't usually take nominations but in this case, as a CotD winner, I have to take your suggestion seriously. The J$P Advisory Board rules that OS is in fact Commenter of the Day. The board sends its congrats to Mr Sucks and thanks Cecelia for a timely, perspicacious nomination.
September 10, 2008, 9:02:11 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Fox Fan
Pat Buchanan just whooped Maddow on her show. It's actually not a bad show, aside from the occasional 100% wrongness from time to time. It's entertaining, and she might not actually be transgendered after all...
Nah.
September 10, 2008, 9:33:40 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Olby Sucks
Olby Sucks takes bow, takes paper out of pocket, thanks Cecelia, whom he owes it all to for the nomination. Also, thanks Johnny Dollar's Place and his "advisory board" for all of their hard work in making this all possible and gives many thanks to all members of Johnny Dollars Place on both sides of the aisle. Thank you! Gracefully exits stage........
September 10, 2008, 11:29:08 PM EDT – Like – Reply
Olby Sucks
That ICN piece is a great read. Very informative, sheds a lot of light. Olby's "9/11" comments are the end of his beginning. I knew it when I saw it, live.
September 11, 2008, 1:07:47 AM EDT – Like – Reply
